Deconstructing Ice Cube 1990 – 1993

Intro: 0:00

Take a time machine back to before the world went to hell, around the year

Chad Bishoff: 0:05

2000. The 80s and 90s were so rad.

Adam Wintz: 0:10

The movies, the music, the TV, the games, that's what I want to talk about.

Intro: 0:14

Like and subscribe on your favorite podcast app and continue the conversation on Facebook and Instagram. And if you're cool enough, join the show on Patreon for exclusive bonus content. And less than 2000 with Adam Wintz, and Chad Bishoff.

Adam Wintz: 0:37

Less than 2000

Chad Bishoff: 0:39

Now part of the HyperX Podcast Network.

Adam Wintz: 0:43

This is a little bit of a surprise Chad going down this memory lane. Honestly,

Chad Bishoff: 0:47

I think surprise is an understatement. I mean, I Yes, i i have been texting you all week. Let's let everybody in we do talk outside of the show. And and I I'm excited to have this conversation with you and equal parts excited and terrified. So like, maybe we should dive right in and figure this out. Because there was a lot to unravel. In, in the art. That is Ice Cube from 1990 to 93. Specifically.

Adam Wintz: 1:23

so much so much more than I thought we we grew up huge ice cube, huge ice cube fans. Like he was our guy. I mean, he was our guy even before Dre and I, I checked out of rap in general at a certain point about 95-96 is when that change occurred for me by 96 it was full on rock and I no longer listen to rap. Ice cube was our guy.

Chad Bishoff: 1:54

Yeah, no, absolutely. I checked out of rap around 2001

Adam Wintz: 1:58

and I have not listened to very much of it all some you know, just the hits that come on. backspin or Rock the Bells, radio,

Chad Bishoff: 2:09

do people remember backspin was dope and then they rebranded on Sirius XM.

Adam Wintz: 2:14

So the only songs I've heard were really the big ones. You know, it was a good day, and things like that. Going back and listening to this stuff, because I heard when when will they shoot came on? And I was like, Oh yeah, man, the predator 1992 We need to get into ice cube we need to do a dedicated episode on ice cube. But I haven't heard the music in about 25 years.

Chad Bishoff: 2:40

No. And when will they shoot was was a great track on predator like that was amazing highlight. I mean, highlight track that does put a lot of feelings in you and makes you go like, let's recap. Let's go back to the beginning. right after the days, he leaves NWA, he throws he gives the finger to to you know, Dre and Eazy E and and their their their white, you know, Guy stealing money from them,

Adam Wintz: 3:15

Jerry Heller, and he did not steal money from them.

Chad Bishoff: 3:19

I just like saying that. It's kind of like how you know Kurt Cobain was murdered. But anyway, you know, so yeah. And then he goes out on his own

Adam Wintz: 3:27

and started with AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted,

Chad Bishoff: 3:32

that he did.

Adam Wintz: 3:35

What a way to start.

Chad Bishoff: 3:39

Um, I want to start this out, because I want to make sure that everybody kind of has like a slight image because of where we were at. We actually really, really fell in love with cube I think when when we were a little older, like a ripe 13. And so that was more like the predator and lethal injection. And having re-listened to all of it this week. Lethal injection. Definitely, way more of now the slightly more polished commercialized version of cube where you got Bop Gun with George Clinton the guy... Yeah, it's still Ice Cube it's still

Adam Wintz: 4:27

do it. Yes.

Chad Bishoff: 4:28

However, we then went back in time to listen to like, AmeriKKKa's most wanted, and death certificate and things like that, which were the more you know, starting grassroots movements of his solo career, and they are way harder. Like it's a whole different experience. I want to open it up to you. I just wanted everybody to have context of like, we kind of went backwards from that. A slightly more commercialized version back to the beginning, where it's like a now looking back on it. Oh ^&%$

Adam Wintz: 5:08

oh &^*$ is right. And it's so there's, everybody should be aware that this is going to be a different episode than than typical, because I thought the show was going to be us just geeking out over this rap that we love so much. But this is actually going to be a very, it may by the end of it, there's going to be enough of that, that we will geek out over but we're going to have a wide ranging conversation. Because this is like, this is me grappling with adulthood. This is me grappling with issues of like sexuality, race and power. And some serious heavy stuff that we have to confront in the show. And I want to I want to confront it and really deconstruct ice cube in in a cerebral way, because there's so much going on in this music now. A few weeks ago, we did punk music 70s Punk and the Sex Pistols with Matt Miller. And it occurred to me that gangsta rap is the punk music of the late 80s and early 90s. and NWA and ice cube is very much punk, in terms of think of what Matt said about turning over the table and disrupting civil society and changing opening the doors on a whole new kind of music and shedding light. On previously undiscussed topics. Rap music is punk. This was the punk music of our time, even more so than grunge, I would say,

Chad Bishoff: 6:42

Oh absolutely, because grunge grunge made individuales feel something. Gangsta rap, made an entire country of parents and politicians freak out on what the kids are the youths of today were listening. And we were, we were at the center of it. We were literally the age that they were talking about 90 to 93 when this all this stuff was going on late 80s, early 90s We were the age, you know, like, we were listening to this stuff, and and going back and listening to it now. I mean, it's, uh, I mean, Adam likes to do his little segment on you know, this made me feel something this made Adam feel something. Well, this made Chad feel something. And it wasn't all, it wasn't all like bobbing my head like it was in the 90s. And then by the time I was driving, bumping it was my two MTX 5000s In my red 91 Cutlass Supreme Oldsmobile, with my my glowing light on the interior thinking I was *^&%ing dope... this &^%$^% was dark man

Adam Wintz: 7:58

it is dark and, and, and I've got I've got very mixed feelings about it. And I look, I look forward to dissecting the music and my feelings and the way this fits in society, then and now. And it didn't offend me at all, when I was 13. It offends the ^&%$ out of a 40 year old Adam. And and I am conflicted by a lot of this, but we're gonna have we're not cancel culture people. We're just not, that's not the kind of people we are. And no one's gonna say that, that he should be canceled and not work anymore. But I think there's I think there's room for nuance in this conversation, because I am going to condemn a lot of this. But on the other hand, I'm going to defend his right to say it, and also say that there is value to what this brought for an individual and a societal perspective.

Chad Bishoff: 8:51

Okay, so totally agree. And the the thing is, one, I'm not for cancel culture, you're right, you know, if he had the freedom to say this, what makes it I think more interesting, because everybody listening to this, whether you listen to ice cube or not now, if we're gonna say this much about how something affected us that we loved back in the day, clearly, there's some crazy stuff in his lyrics. And even if you haven't listened to ice cube, you can tune into this show, because you'll still get the subtext of what's going on. That being said, the thing that makes it more interesting is you can argue gangsta rap was supposed to take an element of what was going on in the projects and in the areas of forgotten society in it where governments didn't care you know, police brutality all of the all of the drugs the guns, the the no way to escape world that encapsulated and trapped many people in those in those areas right in those urban areas. So when you start hearing about the things that are coming coming out, and you're listening to the music it gave it gave them a voice. So to read and find out that that ice cube, went to high school in Woodland Hills, a very nice upper scale neighborhood. And then was using fiction, not his own personal life as the head writer for NWA, and then all of his consecutive solo albums moving forward, that starts to change the conversation that we're having. And I will say Ice Cube is a fantastic writer, and he's a he's an amazing lyricist.

Adam Wintz: 10:43

I think he did. So to a certain degree, he did live it like his half sister was killed. When she was 12. He did grow up in a two parent home in a more affluent part of town. He went to college, he got an architectural design degree. He went to Arizona got a college degree before his he joined NWA. So yeah, when he's talking about like, killing people and cooking baking up, crack cocaine, and pimpin hoes and stuff, is any of that real? You don't know. I mean, I have to agree to a certain amount and he probably experienced it. But one of the articles I found, said he he became the character Doughboy that he played in, in Boys in the Hood, that he he took that persona, which that came out in 91. So probably shot some of 90 when he was starting his. But he of course, he was in NWA before that. But yeah, that he became Doughboy in a sense. And his run with that all these years. He's now in his 50s. And he's making songs about pimpin women with his sons. And a woman will never make it without ya. With his so so like,

Chad Bishoff: 12:03

what's crazy about that is his movie persona. The ice cube the actor, is like now playing dad roles and has done all these like popcorn, fun, comedic movies. And you know, Daddy, are we there yet? And stuff like that. So I mean, again, I don't, I would never, this is so tough to talk about because I want to have, he has the right obviously to say whatever he wants. And even if that desire is to perpetuate a perception of abuse. Technically, it's his right to do that. You would just think that that people would continue on it was like, when when I listened to one of we love digital underground and and digital underground came out with an album like 10 years ago. And I was like, Oh, crap, I was like, oh my god, I can't wait to listen, I listened I call you up. And I'm like, he's talking about being like wanting to be a dad and stuff like, what? What's this crap and you go, Chad, people age and grow up. You're in your 30s. Now, he's probably close to 50 You're like, oh, yeah, yeah, we we grow up. It's so I understand like AmeriKKKa's most wanted to a degree at the time he was taking and and he was projecting the time of the stuff that was going on. But then to continue that on forever. That's where it becomes even more, I guess questionable, shall we say?

Adam Wintz: 13:40

I have a I have a problem. As an adult. I have a problem with people subjugating other groups, anti semitism, anti women, anti Koreans, anti anything anti white people, anything that's not black, he has a problem with at least in his lyrics. And then he then he puts forth the fact that he's perpetuating this sort of sense of the only way to get ahead, is to be a gangster is to pimp hoes to sell drugs to be a gang banger to kill people and get your bling and and all of that stuff. I would understand. I would understand that if it's like, look, this is all we've got. We have to fight over the limited scraps because society is against us. We can't get help from the government. Our neighborhood is destroyed. Our schools suck. There's no opportunity. You don't have the ability to this guy got a architecture degree, you know, he was from another state. And so I one do I have a problem with propagating a message of the only way to Get Ahead is to hurt your society is to flood it with crack cocaine and kill each other. I have a problem with that. Do I also have a problem with somebody who didn't actually necessarily live that life? telling everybody else? That that's what you should do? So it becomes a chicken in the egg argument. Does this do this? Yes. It's really like I always assumed he really lived that life. And he's, quote, telling it like it is. But did he actually, in some sense, create how it is? by glorifying something that he wasn't necessarily directly a part of.

Chad Bishoff: 15:38

If you become the character you create long enough, that argument really does stand. Yeah, it's not just a chicken in the egg. It is. You are, it's not even it's perpetuated problem, are you creating the problem? You know, now on the other hand, as a writer myself, it is possible to take the things you see and write characters. And, and, and put that down and put that out into the world and tell it in an honest, authentic way. And that's why I say, Cube's an insane lyricist, and writer,

Adam Wintz: 17:03

and performer and, and performer, but

Chad Bishoff: 17:05

But it started with his writing all the way back on NWA, you know, NWA when they were a group that he was a part of, you know, you could look around and he could see the stuff that was going on. I mean, you know, Eazy E was, and was who He said He was, Dre, I think live down the street or something like that, you know, so there was an authenticity there. So you could kind of justify cubes existence, because he could be taking that and manipulating it on the page. But then everything past that is now now becomes in question for me. And, and, and again, I absolutely loved ice cube. And I don't know why I meant to say that past tense think It's because we're arguing this.

Adam Wintz: 17:55

It's interesting, though,

Chad Bishoff: 17:56

but it's like, I bop gun. Sure I can listen to that again. You know, lethal injection had had pieces that that work. I mean, and

Adam Wintz: 18:09

and also had some really bad stuff, too.

Chad Bishoff: 18:12

And it really did. Well, that was the thing. That was the thing about every one of his albums. Like I got through, I got to 1990 and I was like, Okay, we'll go to death certificate, which I knew a lot more of the of the tracks on and I'm like, oh, okay, you know, it's angry. And it says that, and then all of a sudden it goes right back to the same abuse stuff. And, and, and specifically, you know, women, I mean, honestly, I'm not I don't eve n want to go down the road in the lyrics. But it's a man's world on AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted. My I literally like, I think I was driving and I was illegally on my phone, because I didn't want to forget. I'm not kidding you. I was so disturbed by that song. I was like, I want to know. What does ice cube honestly think today about that song? I mean, he goes from these angry, angry, you know, you know, racial gun violence tracks, and then suddenly it's like complete sexist abuse. He's literally abusing women, like positively in a track and it's like out of left field suddenly, like oh my god, like what are you working through dude?

Adam Wintz: 19:42

So he's not apologetic about it. I you asked that question. I wonder what he's like. Now I started Googling that I was trying to find out Has he made any statements about how what he used to write? Because at least Eddie Murphy We gave Eddie Murphy a hard time for some of us especially as homophobic stuff. He Eddie Murphy came out and he didn't it wasn't a huge apology, but he acknowledged it. And he did say times were different. And I do apologize without qualification. I apologize for for hurting people. Like he acknowledged that that was not appropriate. Ice Cube has never walked it back. Never ever. I found that he's ever come off of anything that he said. And I want to take it back to what you were saying earlier. Chad, you are a good you're a brilliant writer yourself. You and Sam are great writers. And I had the pleasure. Hopefully I can say this, of seeing a screen a private screening of your film at your house last Friday. But it was the point is you wrote a script about, you know, mental illness and the dark places of the human psyche. Okay, you did that you did a movie that affected me to the point where I felt different after having watched it and and had to process a series of emotions. You don't go on to live that gimmick. Ice Cube lives. The gimmick.

Chad Bishoff: 21:10

He joins NWA, he saw plenty of stuff. Yeah, he did. He did. I'm sure he did go to I think he also the young rested. You know, he did do these things like he did have he did see it. It's not that he didn't see it. It's not that there weren't things that that he could relate to, everybody can relate to, to things that they see. If you really, if you have any heart at all, if you see an atrocity, you're gonna feel something, and you can turn that into a movie or a song or a poem. And you can put that out into the world. He joined the crowd and then portrayed you know, the image of what was happening around him. So I mean

Adam Wintz: 21:58

more than even just joining the crowd and portraying the image like actually an outsider potentially creating the image and and contributing to the problem.

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Adam Wintz: 23:03

In this period, we were already listening to Nine Inch Nails. We already had been listening to Metallica. But I would say nails went into some really dark places like especially the album fixed. And and then a year later, downward spiral. The hardest and darkest themed music that I was we were listening to at the time turns out to be Ice Cube

Chad Bishoff: 23:31

I would have never said that.

Adam Wintz: 23:33

Way, way, way harder and darker than anything nails ever did.

Chad Bishoff: 23:38

Yeah, I would have said that. Had we not gone back and listened to at the time. You're like, Oh,

Adam Wintz: 23:46

It's like, I very much see why my parents wouldn't want me to listen to this. This is so over the top. This is so just incredibly blue. Comparatively speaking to anything else we listen to the hardest music we listened to was definitely Ice Cube Without a doubt, I understand now going back and listening to this. I understand why my parents took this stuff away for me. How would you feel about your son or daughter listening to this and hearing some horrific stuff about women and other races? I I would have said when I was 13 you cannot censor this. You can't not allow me to be exposed to another culture. But it's problematic. It is very much problematic and views viewing it in isolation without having a broader discussion, I think is a problem but how do you justify give up giving up the nappy dugout

Chad Bishoff: 24:48

if I was to have a kid today the thing is all of this stuff is out there. So this becomes where parent This is where parenting is important. It's not about just taking it away because if our parents took the stuff away and then we went up the street to not gonna say the name and immediately got all the stuff back you literally could have we had there were there were friends of ours that had older brothers access to this stuff back then was easy. Now it's like you can't stop it with the Internet. It's all nonstop access to anything anything you want. And you can't just say this does. So the big thing comes down to education and and about teaching the teaching your kids that this is not real video games when you're shooting people, even if they're cartoon or whatever, it's not real. That's not real life. It's entertainment. And, and, you know, they're making tons of money, giving other people a temporary enjoyment or relief or whatever. So it comes down to education because this kind of stuff isn't going to go away. And I don't believe in sensory, you know, it comes down to not believing it.

Adam Wintz: 26:08

It forces the difficult conversations, it's like, it's important to understand what about society produces an Ice Cube produces this life, because we were not aware of it. We this is this was our entree into discovering about South South Central LA, whether his legitimacy can be questioned or not. It was a it was one of those things where it is important to have an uncomfortable conversation. I keep going back to this as punk music. It is intentionally upsetting. No, it does. He does not get a pass for me, for many of the things he said. But, but I I agree with his right to say it. I guess. I mean, if I had a kid I I don't know if I'd let him listen to it or not. But I definitely damn sure that the conversation,

Chad Bishoff: 27:03

I would never let

Adam Wintz: 27:04

I think it's important to, to say, you know, I would I would say you know, a group like Public Enemy addressed these issues a lot better. In a more productive method.

Chad Bishoff: 27:15

Oh, there's was political rap. His was a glorification of violence and taking matters into your own hands. that's never the right answer. The right answer is not to take matters into your own hands and murder people or the people that you find that you don't like, or, you know, knowingly having illegal sex with underage women, or all of the many, many, many, many, many things that, that just tips the iceberg. Of that that is cube. But so so you don't let your kids listen, you find out they listen, and then you have a discussion.

Adam Wintz: 27:52

I guess I thought it was more uplifting. I thought it was more like Public Enemy. I thought it was more like shedding light on things. But now listening to it as a grown man, as somebody who should be raising a 10 year old experiencing this stuff. Like, I, I'm very conflicted by it. It's like seeing it's not what I remembered it to be. And I do want people to be uplifted. And so when I hear people putting other people down, that that bothers me, because I want the rising tide to lift all boats. And when when somebody is shooting holes and other people's boats, and saying you can't have it, because then that's less for me. To me, that's the same problem as the people who aren't letting all of us have enough. Are you really any different than the quote man? UNQUOTE... Because you are now an oppressor. And, and so yeah, it's, it's interesting, I hope I hope people have got How do you feel about it? You tell us how I

Chad Bishoff: 28:59

think I think I mean, I think I've been pretty transparent abundantly clear from the get go that i Obviously I don't believe in censorship if people want to, if he wants to put this out, this is what he needs to do to put out it's good for him. It's on us to either choose to listen or not to listen and or to educate our children. You know what I mean? He made a little money on us this week, I you know, going down the, the and listening to everything and all that kind of stuff. And cool. It was nice to revisit it for a moment. But more importantly, what it did was we often celebrate the awesome stuff from our childhood. Right. And I think what we missed, and the things that we didn't realize until this week, is that sometimes what we remember about our childhood doesn't always match with the reality of which what it was We lumped Ice Cube in with all of the other artists that were speaking out like public enemy and and NWA at the time and and all that we were putting our minds that he was part of that so to go back and realize, oh, no, he was um he was over here saying things way different than what we thought and and I think that's the thing about life the things that we remembered the way we remember things are sometimes different than the Reality Plus, we have the the equal part awesome and problem of age at this point.

Adam Wintz: 30:40

SmartPoint awesome Mic drop. Great way, this is the deepest episode we've ever done the longest episode we've ever done ever and who would have thought it would have been on&*^)^ ice cube? I mean, unbelievable that the deepest show we've ever gotten the deepest discussion you and I have ever had in the last 10 years, not dealing with our personal lives or whatever was was caused by ice cube and I just thought it'd be. It'd be fun to go down memory lane and listen.

Chad Bishoff: 31:08

Hey, remember Bob Gun. Yeah, it was awesome.