70’s Punk & the Sex Pistols w/ Matt Miller

Intro: 0:00

Take a time machine back to before the world went to hell around the year 2000.

Chad Bishoff: 0:07

The 80s and 90s were so rad.

Adam Wintz: 0:10

The movies, the music, the TV, the games, that's what I want to talk about.

Intro: 0:14

Like can subscribe on your favorite podcast app and continue the conversation on Facebook and Instagram. And if you're cool enough, join the show on Patreon for exclusive bonus content... and now Less Than 2000 with Adam Wintz and Chad Bishoff.

Chad Bishoff: 0:35

Yo, Adam, can you believe that less than 2000 has a sponsor now

Adam Wintz: 0:39

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Chad Bishoff: 0:49

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Adam Wintz: 0:59

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Chad Bishoff: 1:07

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Adam Wintz: 1:16

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Chad Bishoff: 1:19

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Adam Wintz: 1:23

Less Than 2000.

Chad Bishoff: 1:25

Now part of the HyperX Podcast Network.

Adam Wintz: 1:29

It's awesome to have like my two closest friends in one zoom call, where I can just totally let it rip and be myself. But this is Matt Miller. He's a close very close family friend. We're super tight. He he half of the wrinkles on his face are directly attributable to me. And not that there's that many to begin with. It's just the lighting.

Matt Miller: 1:55

You said you weren't going to use my real name. Can we cut that part out?

Chad Bishoff: 1:59

Wait, that's the part you want stricken from the record? You're like yes, dogs my name?

Adam Wintz: 2:05

Well, let's just start with you. Listen to the show. You binge listen to the show. Yes. Thank you. It's it's awesome. Right I mean, you love it. It's it's

Chad Bishoff: 2:15

we need credibility. Can you

Matt Miller: 2:18

can you just give us I hear from I find both of you to be delightful. Funny listen to you got a great rep art day. And candidly, you give me an insight into a generation that I missed because I was busy pretending to be a grown up while you guys were

Chad Bishoff: 2:37

never growing up.

Adam Wintz: 2:39

Right? You started with Boogie Nights, didn't you?

Matt Miller: 2:42

Yeah, yeah, that was great.

Chad Bishoff: 2:44

It's a good one to Stargate.

Matt Miller: 2:46

Well, you guys did did service to a great underappreciated movie.

Adam Wintz: 2:51

And we found Chad, the one actual Crash Test Dummies fan in the world. He's our guest, Matt Miller. Actually,

Matt Miller: 3:03

I like the whole album. Guys. You were talking about one son. Oh, my boy, man. What about this one on this one? I like the whole album.

Chad Bishoff: 3:09

I guess maybe now I gotta go back and give it a chance because of you.

Adam Wintz: 3:13

But you do like good music, like Nine Inch Nails and Tool. And you're going to you're going to be the elder statesman. Today we are trying to skew a little older. As I was leaving your house for Thanksgiving. See? That's how tight we are. I was over there on Thanksgiving night with my mom. And leaving. I said, I don't know exactly how it came up. I said, you know, Matt, he's a great guy and everything. But he he likes punk music. Like he loves punk rock, like the Sex Pistols. And she's just like AWEE. It's like, really? Oh, man. He's such an otherwise great guy. But the Sex Pistols.

Matt Miller: 3:58

Wait a minute, you're telling us to your mother?

Adam Wintz: 4:00

Yes. As we were leaving

Matt Miller: 4:02

because you needed to take the sheen off of me? Because it was obvious to you that your mother was starting to like me more than you why else would you do that?

Adam Wintz: 4:14

i You're right, I had to knock you down a peg in my mom's eyes. Like there's only so many people that tolerate me and two of them are on this zoom. Like I can't lose my mother who does not listen to the show or follow us on social media by the way,

Matt Miller: 4:28

and who's never listened to the Sex Pistols.

Adam Wintz: 4:31

I could guarantee that and and I'm not sure I had ever listened to much of the Sex Pistols either. But it is so you quoted to me all the time. You sing lyrics. I know. You're really into it. You're of that generation. And I'm really interested in hearing about it from a fan and I'm not going to tear it down. I mean, I gave Backstreet Boys a chance. I gave 80s hair bands a chance. I discovered Coolio again, I discovered, you know, what's that? What's that band with a bleached blonde hair Everclear Okay, so I gave all of that a chance. And so I'm gonna give punk rock a chance. I did my homework I listened to Never Mind the Bollocks. And I want to hear it from you. I want to know I want a history lesson on punk rock, and Sex Pistols in general. You just open forum to start the conversation wherever you see fit.

Matt Miller: 5:31

I was Gosh, what would have been 15-16 years old 1978. And I was in a Peaches Record Store, which is this huge warehouse where they unload all the LPs and I was hunting for something you have to understand in the in the 1977 1978. What we were offered was a bunch of bloated, ponderous rehash celebrity rock music Steve Miller Band Foreigner. Jefferson Airplane once good had morphed into Jefferson Starship. Peter Frampton, REO Speedwagon, that was the genre, and I was hunting for something. And in the discount bin, I found this pale pink album with black print on top said Never Mind the Bollocks and the cross said here's the Sex Pistols look like it was a ransom note and had a little cutout on the side of it was discounted. The album had been released in the United States in I think, late 1977. I'm in this Peaches in the spring of '78. And it's already in the discount bin. And I just stared at this thing and said what the hell and took it home and played it. It just it absolutely changed my world. It was and is the archetypal piece of music with regard to sneering, angry ferocious anarchistic nihilism. And as I've heard you guys talk about some of the music that you explored as a teenager who is unhappy doesn't understand why he's unhappy as questioning everything feels like he's being pushed into conformity. It just blew my my head wide open. And in I hadn't heard anything like it before. It was just it was so it wasn't just angry and rude. There was real feeling and thought behind the the lyrics and the anger and wanting to just turn everything over. And it's just set the hook in me when I was drowning in the sea of you know, Thin Lizzy and I mean there's nothing wrong with mindless stupid classic rock. But this was actually anger that was more than just screaming it was actually if you if you look at the lyrics and you listen to oh my god, you listen to Johnny Rotten's delivery. There's been nothing like it before since in in Nine Inch Nails and Tool and Nirvana and all of these bands that were influenced by the Sex Pistols are a result of that. But you have to go back at that point in time where it's that kind of stuff. And forgive me, Adam. Yes, Emerson Lake and Palmer, the Moody Blues, you know, or some bloated tired celebrity rock album by you know, Ron wood or somebody else from the stones. And in this, this just cut right through everything, like an acid knife.

Chad Bishoff: 9:10

I absolutely, yeah. Thank you. By the way, thank you for acknowledging and clearly you listen to the show. I'm glad you got in Nirvana. I I've said this before, I'm convinced in a lot of ways that music speaks generationally, like I feel like during the formative years, for when you're probably 12, especially 11-12 to 20, the pop culture that comes out speaks to you because that's the age at which you're going through the very things that you're listening to. So like I needed Nirvana, I needed Kurt Cobain with his, you know, whiny infectious vocals that spoke to me to make me feel better about who I was. And this clearly, because this isn't just some of the generic crap that was out there. This was really great music that spoke to you. Because it was real, it was raw. And so it meant more to you because it wasn't just some popcorn fluffy bull #$@!. You know, and I think that's what sticks with you, right? It gives you this feeling of comfort because that was there for you when you needed it most.

Matt Miller: 10:24

You know the band. If you think about it, England in the in the 70s was repressed and stiff upper lip and, and put a smile on your face and God Save the Queen and great thought for a song. And in they just completely, you know, took a baseball bat to them and wanted to turn that upside down and light it on fire. That particular song was banned by the BBC. It was banned by every radio station in England. The sale of the albums subjected them to lawsuits with regard to profanity laws in England. Yeah, so that's, that's the kind of thing that speaks to a teenager.

Adam Wintz: 11:17

You picked up an LP, and you bought it because of the cover and and the name of the band, I'm sure and and the presentation of it. And you had never heard it on the radio at that point. And you just you literally judged it by its cover. And and then you took it home and you took out Stevie Winwood you took out Steve Winwood you would what? Do you remember what it was that was playing at the time when you replaced it with the Sex Pistols and your life completely changed

Matt Miller: 11:44

For the record, I just want to make it clear, I've never owned a Stevie Winwood album, nor will I. I had never heard them for God's guys. This is this is the same timeframe where Elvis Costello was on SNL. And they tell him you can't play Radio Radio. And he finishes the song he's allowed to play in the breaks right into Radio Radio, and they banned him from SNL for life. So no, the Sex Pistols were not getting airplay on z92. No, and and I had no clue what they were. But it looked like it was a did little slice on the side. It's discounted. It looked like the anti Emerson Lake and Palmer. It looks so crude, and so basic. And it just seemed so palpably different than the bloated, ponderous crap being buried with. I said, I gotta go check this out.

Adam Wintz: 12:53

And this is the this is the generational shift. Because if we were closer to like 10 years apart, I think we'd be more aligned but because it's more of a 18 year spread closer to a 20 year spread, because of the way pop culture changes and reacts to the thing before it and the thing 10 years before and the thing 20 years before it we're like out of sync because I personally really love that bloated ponderous crap. I love Pink Floyd Emerson, Lake and Palmer Yes, Rush, King, Crimson, all of that the stuff of the 20 minute long songs that that that punk rock directly gave the middle finger to

Matt Miller: 13:35

if you if you grew up in a time where every other song on the radio was Boston,

Adam Wintz: 13:41

Boston's different I mean, Boston and REO Speedwagon is

Matt Miller: 13:45

in Kansas and that's what they're stuffing right your face all the time. You would have related to

Adam Wintz: 13:53

and then MC five comes along and says kick out the jam $%^^#!. And goes crazy in 1970 and then you got you know, Iggy Pop come along.

Matt Miller: 14:04

The Stooges? Yeah, amazing. One of my personal favorites, the New York Dolls brilliant David Johansen mine I shouldn't admit this but my nickname everybody in high school called me Mata Ramon because he's walking into school and I'm in the in my pickup truck, beat my head against the wall listening to the Ramones, great stuff, the Velvet Underground, all of that stuff was was wonderful foundational work. But I would submit that that the Sex Pistols were an absolute grenade that went off and exploded into the public consciousness. I think their music is incredible. It's it's as vibrant and dynamic today, as it was then, but at that time, it really and truly is what the Ramones I mean the Velvet Underground Nero dollars you can argue they're not they're they're they're pre punk. But but the Sex Pistols and the controversy that surrounded them in England is what caused punk rock to explode into the into the the world consciousness in my opinion.

Adam Wintz: 15:22

Had you heard those other bands before the Sex Pistols? Or was the Sex Pistols like your entree into that whole world? Because,

Matt Miller: 15:30

you know it was the Sex Pistols?

Adam Wintz: 15:31

Yeah, New York Dolls was like 73. Some of that other stuff was from new ones, but

Matt Miller: 15:35

I didn't discover them until maybe seven or eight months after the Sex Pistols

Adam Wintz: 15:41

and they didn't play it on the radio, because it was anti, it was anti pop.

Matt Miller: 15:45

You're not going to hear any of this stuff in the radio. So one of the things with regard to your generation is information across the board is so much more readily accessible to you folks, I remember when I discovered found the first American release album of the clash, which was Give Them Enough Rope was actually their second album, but that was released. I remember buying that in some discount store saying, I'd read about these guys in Rolling Stone and check them out. But it took a number of years before they caught on and there's some great work, but the early stuff just just was not recognized.

Adam Wintz: 16:34

By the way you give me a hard time for the way I dress and look and behave. Sometimes the New York Dolls who take it, go ahead and Google the New York Dolls and see what they look like. Because they were they were a glam punk. And I've I've heard you give David Bowie a hard time sometimes. But the New York Dolls man. Vietnamese Baby is the one that you told me to listen of them and

Matt Miller: 17:00

personality crisis. That was my personal recommendation for you.

Chad Bishoff: 17:04

Oh yeah, they definitely had a style

Matt Miller: 17:12

The difference between now don't say anything bad about the band sweet. Okay. But the difference between the New York Dolls and David Bowie is David Bowie took himself seriously

Chad Bishoff: 17:22

That he did.

Matt Miller: 17:24

Yeah, and that is not forgivable.

AD: 17:28

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Adam Wintz: 19:08

This is how little I know about at night and I'm not here to make fun of it. I'm here to learn at your feet. From the wise wise bird the wise owl can i i very embarrassed

Matt Miller: 19:22

it takes three licks

Adam Wintz: 19:25

I didn't learn until very recently. I cannot believe Johnny Rotten is not only still alive, but he's still active. Like he survived somehow.

Matt Miller: 19:40

Yeah.

Adam Wintz: 19:41

Unbelievable.

Matt Miller: 19:43

And Johnny lighten and after the pistols broke up after their you know, one album. He formed the PIO Public Image Limited and groundbreaking great stuff absolutely great stuff. They influenced a lot of bands I think the Buzzcocks, Joy Division. I think Kurt Cobain acknowledged the influences the Sex Pistols. I don't think there's ever been anybody before or since who knocked over the tables, the way the Sex Pistols

Adam Wintz: 20:19

he did and in fact, Nevermind. The breakthrough hit was a nod to the album that we're talking about today. And and I was surprised to see that Johnny Rotten didn't appreciate that. Like here is Kurt Cobain saying you inspired basically inspired a whole sub genre of punk, which is grunge and spawned Nirvana and all those bands. And Johnny Rotten has a problem with using Nevermind

Matt Miller: 20:49

It is completely consistent with the Sex Pistols. No, I mean, I think the notion of somebody, you know becoming a fan or idolizing or, or, you know, researching getting into this, this this, you know, celebrity worship is antithetical to the Sex Pistols.

Adam Wintz: 21:53

They were very anti establishment and I mean, you're talking

Matt Miller: 21:58

kind of classic Malcolm McLaren, the guy who was in a sense, he was kind of there. Andy Warhol was an iconoclast, their manager, he was he was he was kind of there Andy Warhol kind of got these characters together and had something to do with iconoclastic theme at the band has something to do with that

Adam Wintz: 22:24

he owned a clothing store known simply as...

Matt Miller: 22:28

Cover your ears Chad, What was it known as?

Adam Wintz: 22:32

Known simply has sex. And and and they used to hang out there and he kind of put his symbol the band you you come in you come in and and, you know the original basis. Glen Matlock did most of the songwriting for the album and a lot of

Matt Miller: 22:50

There's argument. There's argument about that, okay. Yes,

Adam Wintz: 22:53

but they got rid of him. They got rid of him pretty fast because, well, Johnny Rotten, didn't think he, he said he was like a proper type bloke. He likes things like the Beatles, and he just wasn't fitting in very well, I guess. So they put so they brought in somebody else who epitimizes not just the Sex Pistols, but punk rock in general. And that, of course, is Sid Vicious.

Matt Miller: 23:19

story is that Malcolm McLaren is walking down the street, and they need somebody as front man. And he sees Johnny Leyden soon to be Johnny Rotten, walking down the street with a Pink Floyd shirt. And the words hate over the top of Pink Floyd. He says, Hey, man, you might be our guy.

Adam Wintz: 23:43

And then later when he met Sid Vicious, he was like, oh, I should have chose this guy's the front man.

Matt Miller: 23:49

Syd was a big fan of the band. And they brought him on and he didn't know how to play the bass. He, learned in time. But look at him. For God's sake. He belongs up there with them. He belongs up there

Adam Wintz: 24:02

rock and roll and punk rock specifically, you are talking about Sid Vicious and he is very much not amongst the living. He died in 79 I think we could do a whole episode on Sid Vicious because

Matt Miller: 24:16

Sid and Nancy set movie. was that the one with Gary Oldman. Of course Gary Oldman, played Sid Vicious, because who else would do it? Gary Oldman is one of the best character actors, what are the best method actors ever and he can do everything. And that movie was like from '86 or something. I got to see that movie. I have to see that movie. It's got to blow the doors off of the movie The doors with Val Kilmer. Let's bore into Sid because Sid and we'll get back to the music but let's talk about the cult of personality which Johnny Rotten does not like. So Sid, I think it was before he was in the band was was at a show and threw a bottle at someone on stage missed the person he was trying to hit and blinded a woman with a bottle. Like that's rock and roll. Let's go for a professional musician. You're gonna get nitpicky on us here.

Adam Wintz: 25:14

His girlfriend died of stab wounds mysteriously. And he was arrested for it and his his mom got him hooked on heroin and I mean this this is rock and roll.

Matt Miller: 25:27

He was a train wreck. And it's a sad story and all I can say is, is he looked great up there or what

Adam Wintz: 25:35

I'm looking at specific lyrics I want to talk to you about. I had I had other points but then you moved on from them so I'm like well

Matt Miller: 25:44

Did I blow past your segue into Vanilla Ice let's just back up and you can do that

Adam Wintz: 25:51

I mean so earlier you know you're talking about without

Matt Miller: 25:54

Yes wihtout the Sex Pistols there would have been vanilla eyes okay.

Chad Bishoff: 25:59

I don't know if I can get behind that statement

Matt Miller: 26:02

please don't Chad, I respect you.

Chad Bishoff: 26:06

Thank you.

Adam Wintz: 26:07

Look I didn't appreciate punk I've never really appreciated punk and I still don't think I'm going to go out of my way to listen to a lot of punk rock even now that I can see where it's where it comes from and the value that it has given I do not discount it I don't say it's crap. I of course I'm going to prefer my over bloated over produced 20 minutes songs of progressive rock but actually listening to it and and I think musically it's one thing that musically it was better than I gave it credit for it was a little bit more intricate and complex than just three chord rock I mean it is very much three chord rock but the lyrics the lyrics and the delivery is what really stands

Matt Miller: 26:53

Johnny Rotten baby oh my doubt that deliveries untouchable

Chad Bishoff: 26:58

what I find interesting is it wasn't but a couple of weeks ago that you referred to Paula Abdul as being fire and yet you won't take a trip down and down this path and listen to punk rock and actually give something that influenced everything in our life a chance.

Adam Wintz: 27:21

I did I gave it... I know I said I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do it again. I'm like after the show. I'm not gonna probably listen to Never Mind the Bollocks nearly as much as Paula Abdul but

Chad Bishoff: 27:33

you're gonna listen to Janet Jackson and Paula Abdul but not listen to this a little more.

Adam Wintz: 27:37

Are you gonna listen to it?

Matt Miller: 27:38

I think his point is interested in some 45 year old song exposed in the monarchy, but he's interested in listening to Megan Markel. On ET Tonight

Adam Wintz: 27:51

explain it to me. I hadn't here with an open mind. I'm i I'm telling you. I appreciate the lyrics. That's what holds up to me the brilliant biting satirical ironic stuff. So I totally see the appeal of this. I

Matt Miller: 28:07

the anger and the rebellion in his calling out the hypocrisy and the stupidity of the monarchy in England. For me, it's it's the delivery of Johnny Rotten. His sneering tone is lucid. He's he's he's so cynical. We love our queen. We mean it man. And England's dreaming it's just so full of revulsion at the status quo and the consumerism is being pushed on everybody by society.

Chad Bishoff: 28:52

Which is why it shocks me that Adam doesn't like more of this

Adam Wintz: 28:55

a little deeper than Paul Abdul I will definitely say that

Chad Bishoff: 28:58

a little. Little and different does not belong in

Adam Wintz: 29:04

it's it's honestly the music as the problem I have the same sentence with it the way it doesn't, it doesn't speak to me because I nerd out on intricate math rock. I like I love the Tool. I love the Rush. I love the cerebral exceptionally trained, talented musicians that can play their instruments at a world class level. And punk rock is is the complete opposite of that I Chad it sounds to me like he's pooh poohing both Nirvana and understand the appeal. It just doesn't appeal to me personally. But I definitely see its value and I am not pooh poohing it I'm just saying my musical taste what makes me happy? Is is is in terms of rock music is not this because it is just so stripped down and hard on the ears off key broken notes. I totally again, I like it as a concept more than I like it as an album to listen to. Same thing with Nirvana. Like I don't hate Nirvana at all. I never bust out Nirvana and listen to it because it just doesn't speak to me in the way that other bands do. the Sex Pistols to the extent that I understand that verb What do you think?

Chad Bishoff: 30:27

Oh, he's pooh poohing he's absolutely pooh poohing.

Matt Miller: 30:30

Yes. but Adam, I know you love Nine Inch Nails.

Adam Wintz: 30:32

Yes. I love everything that that this spawned. I completely give credit and I'm not I just saying that there are certain things that we're all unique special little snowflakes, and this particular snowflake that likes cats to dogs is just I don't put this in my in my phone and hit play on it that often. I just not I'm not going to go out of my way to listen to a bunch of punk it doesn't like the same thing with grunge. Okay, we did the grunge episode. I like Pearl Jam a lot. I don't really care for the rest of grunge I just Soundgarden. And Nirvana doesn't do it for me. But I totally see the value and I especially see the value of the Sex Pistols. Like the Ramones. Whatever, I'm not going to talk %$##! to the Ramones.

Matt Miller: 31:25

No, it's fine. It's power cord, garage rock and in and I completely understand the critics of the Ramones. I feel the same way. I mean, the Dead Kennedys come on. Holiday in Cambodia, California, Uber Allah's. They had a handful of great songs. But for the most part, it's tiresome.

Adam Wintz: 31:47

There's a particular song that you quote quite quite often to me. It quite often to me on this album,

Matt Miller: 31:55

I'm afraid to find out what that is.

Adam Wintz: 31:57

Well, yeah, it's problem. And so would you mind, would you mind giving everybody the delivery that you give to me? On those very specific lyrics?

Matt Miller: 32:07

You got a problem? The problem is you. So what are you going to do about your problem?

Chad Bishoff: 32:18

Adam does need to hear that once in a while.

Matt Miller: 32:21

Yeah, I would, I would say yeah.

Adam Wintz: 32:25

Problems! Problem! I mean, he's this this song. Whoa.

Matt Miller: 32:34

It doesn't get any better than that. But at the end of the day, I just think that with regard to punk music, the Sex Pistols are the ones that caused the world to become aware of punk music it influenced a lot of good bands. It led to the creation of a lot of crappy bands. But it's what catapulted punk music into world consciousness. Some great bands came from that at a lot of really dumb bands that haven't withstood the test of time. But with regard to changing the landscape of music, and what was permissible with regard to music, they were absolutely groundbreaking, profoundly influential band for their very, very brief, limited blowing up into a million shards existence

Adam Wintz: 33:41

to everyone but me apparently influential on everybody,

Matt Miller: 33:45

Well, I think that people that are listening figured this thing out when you confirmed for the fourth time, what a cat person you are. The expectations have been removed.

Adam Wintz: 33:57

Is there anything we haven't covered that you want to cover? I mean, this is your opportunity on the show on Less Than 2000.

Matt Miller: 34:06

When you're looking at all of the music that's out there in my life, and you look at it in the context of when they came out, without question the most powerful smelling salts ever generated with regard to the music scene. It shook everybody up. It woke everybody up, it broadened horizons, it I think knock down walls with regard to what was permissible. And following the Sex Pistols. There was a lot more freedom to explore and into go beyond the prim and proper and acceptable, and I think that's a win for everybody. And I think without the Sex Pistols that would not have happened.

Adam Wintz: 34:51

Did you follow Johnny's career after this? I mean, this is this is stuff worth listening to post 1978

Matt Miller: 34:59

there's some there's some good stuff in there. There's some stuff that's a little bit more polished and refined that the cat lover may find interesting.

Chad Bishoff: 35:07

Sounds right up his alley.